This is a lunch conversation I had with a colleague who is from Kerala. The conversation some how shifted to Malayali Kutti ;).
She : So you would marry a Mallu gal ?
Me : Yeah! Why not if I like her ?
She: So religion, state and language not a problem for ya ?
Me : Nope not a problem at all. I am an Atheist -so religion no problem, I am a Human - So state, country not a problem and Love is the universal language - so language no problem.
She : So you dont believe in God (with absolute disbelief on her face) ?
Me : Nope, I dont. Do you ?
She: Ofcourse, what kind of a question is that ?
Me : So why do you believe in God ?
She:(Silent)........
Me : Tell me why do you believe in God and make a believer out of me.
She:(Silent).......
Me : I am giving you a chance to convince me that I should believe in God.
She:(Silent) If I tell you why I believe in God , then you will believe in God and make other people non believers.(She walks out with her plate )
Me : $%^&*
Can anybody explain me what her last statement meant ?
40 comments:
Laughing out loud!
"I am an Atheist -so religion no problem, I am a Human - So state, country not a problem and Love is the universal language - so language no problem." - How? How ? How?
@ Musafir - Lol, I myself laughed when I read that line, but I dint want to tamper the conversation.
is atheism the fashion of the age??? Me observing a burgeoning clan...
the power of logic is dangerous. If in the hands of the inexperienced it can wreck havoc. Which is probably what the last line meant..
Theism and Atheism both require their due analysis before one can profess them...
Things done on the surface with a black and white approach always lead to mayhem.
Really appreciate the lady for her prudence in terminating the conversation at the point that she did.
@ the soliloquist - Fashion of Age ? Lol. I cannot comprehend what made u say that. Being an Athiest is not a matter of fashion its a way of life.
"the power of logic is dangerous. If in the hands of the inexperienced it can wreck havoc. Which is probably what the last line meant.. "
Can you illustrate with example? I guess u meant power of knowledge.
"Theism and Atheism both require their due analysis before one can profess them... "
Absolutely, thats why I am what I am.And who was professing it, did at any point of conversation did ya feel that I was professing atheism to her. I was infact ready to listen to what she had to day.
Guess u must be a lady too ;)
I came back to check my comment, and what do I see here?
@ the soliloquist: Atheism is not the fashion of the age. One can trace its roots to as far back as the 6th centtury B.C. Read this for more.
"In the hands of the inexperienced" -- you are treading on very dangerous territory here, you know. By saying inexperienced, you are implying either of the following:
1) That the person professing atheism (in this case catch22) has not seen enough of life to proclaim disbelief in God. -- this need not be true, since age and experience need not be proportional; of course such matters do need a certain degree of emotional maturity, but this maturity could occur at any age, Adi Sankara for example.
2) That the said person has not done enough research before adopting an atheistic stance, and that theism should be the default dogma for all concerned -- this again is probably drawing from what one can "see" of the person; one never knows what the person has read or heard. Again you don't have to know the theory of scattering to know that the sky is blue. It merely explains how and why but the what doesn't need that.
That theism should be the default dogma is what I have problems with. This is what is called the burden of proof. To me, personally, the burden of proof lies with the theists. Prove it and I will believe.
What you must understand is that atheists don't scoff at theists (contrary to the tone that the post adopts) unless provoked. If you look around you, the atheists are the ones who are trying to live peacefully while the theists are the ones trying to "convert" people and causing all the problems. And isn't it ironic that the most pending problems in this worls are due to religion?
Simply put, until evidence can prove otherwise, one is at liberty to choose what stance to adopt. Those who choose faith over reason tend to be theists while those who hold reason supreme tend to be atheists, or agnostics.
And the most significant point which must be understood here is that the agnostics and the atheists believe that a good life can be led without the need for a God of any sort.
PS: Being an atheist or an agnostic does not imply arrogance or depravity as is commonly misunderstood.
I guess it would probably mean ....if you are to believe then others are better off as non believers......
Thats quite an experience ..now you have stories for your grandchildren!
@ Musafir:
"What you must understand is that atheists don't scoff at theists (contrary to the tone that the post adopts) unless provoked."
Where in the point of conversation did I scoff at her. For a change I wasnt even sarcastic wid her. I asked her sincerely why she believes in what she believes.
atheism a way of life??
besides the aspect of "not believing in God" i dont see how else it influences one's life.
Observed this in ur convo : u seem to associate anything liberal and modern with "atheism". Just that atheism is almost as old as theism.(agree with musafir) And anything "liberal" couldnt probably be a consequence of atheism alone..or could it??!!!
the idea of God means different things to different people. U can be justified in sayin u dont believe in the God that ur mind has conjured up for u. Maybe, i too wouldnt belive in "ur version of God/god".
Knowledge is an absolute term and wouldnt picture in a conversation such as this. If theism is a hypothesis, so is atheism. So Logic and argument have a better prominence here.. Sophistry can be used to put forth a persuasive case.... A Gift for the gab punctuated with rhetoric can actually steer ur course in any direction, not necessarily the right (the idea of right and wrong again being relative).
Frankly, early 20s isnt the age to form an opinion about things that you just started to wonder about.@ musafir:Abt Adi Shankara, dont u think we are stretching things a bit too far, by drawing a parallel with a person who devoted his early formative years to spiritual thought, rather than spending it in instituitions that would end u up in a comfy job? But then again, i wud be jumping to conclusions if i assumed catch 22 couldnt have left his mother and home to travel across the country in search of the "truth" , wouldnt i?
@musafir : not everything can be proved by tangible evidence. If logic is employed to deduce a proof, then again logic is a powerful tool that gains in strength in the hands of a skilled user.
@catch: There is no complaint abt snobbery of atheists/theists. But wht i d like to say is, this is an area where concrete bi-level stances dont take on much relevance. It is still an open question and do let it remain open.
@ musafir:As for the fashion of the age : u answer my question urself. Rebelling against estabishment is characteristic of the youth!?!!.., and remains so till the youth themeselves become the establishment..
@catch: And yes i am a lady, if u can call me that!! And no points for guessin dat!
@ Soliloquist"
"atheism a way of life??
besides the aspect of "not believing in God" i dont see how else it influences one's life. "
This question can be answered when one look towards the reasons why one believes in God. One believes in God for a variety of reasons. Some of the prominent ones which I see in my daily life ( these observations pertain only to me, i am not saying that these are the only reasons why one believes in God and endup making sweeping generalisations.)
1. One seeks God during times of trouble.One needs an assurance from somebody who is allegedly omniscient,omnipresent and omnipotent that everything is all goin to be fine and He will make it fine. But for an atheist its not like that he had to look to himself for strength.
2. One can attribute any thats happening in ones life to God by jus saying that " Its jus His wish " and i have no say in it. But for an athiest he is majorly responsible for happenings in his own life.
3. One can attribute anything which he doesnt understand saying that these things cannot be understood by us they belong to the higher realm of God. But for an athiest no such higher realm exists.
These ofcourse are parts of "Way of Life".
"Observed this in ur convo : u seem to associate anything liberal and modern with "atheism". Just that atheism is almost as old as theism.(agree with musafir) And anything "liberal" couldnt probably be a consequence of atheism alone..or could it??!!!"
In my convo I dint associate being liberal with atheism. She asked me whether religion was a problem I said no its not a problem at all since I am an atheist.She probably asked me that question because either she had a problem with marrying people of different religion or she suspected that I might have an issue with it, but by proclaiming myself as an athiest I just made clear that religion is irrelevant for me in choosing my life partner. That statement dint suggest that all theists will have problem with marrying people of different religions. Nope I am not saying that being liberal is a product of atheism, if u believe i have conveyed that in my convo then I must say i have been misunderstood.
"the idea of God means different things to different people. U can be justified in sayin u dont believe in the God that ur mind has conjured up for u. Maybe, i too wouldnt belive in "ur version of God/god"."
Absolutely no problem with that at all. But when u link religion and God as she did in the conversation there was no ambiguity as to what God meant to her.
"Knowledge is an absolute term and wouldnt picture in a conversation such as this. If theism is a hypothesis, so is atheism. So Logic and argument have a better prominence here.. Sophistry can be used to put forth a persuasive case.... A Gift for the gab punctuated with rhetoric can actually steer ur course in any direction, not necessarily the right (the idea of right and wrong again being relative). "
Where did sophistry figure in the entire post ? I dint put an ingenuine argument and tried to deceive someone did i ? If u feel so cite the argument.
" There is no complaint abt snobbery of atheists/theists. But wht i d like to say is, this is an area where concrete bi-level stances dont take on much relevance. It is still an open question and do let it remain open. "
It is an open ended question. I dont profess atheism to thiests though many thiests try to do that to me. Even in the conversation the disbelief was on her face not on mine. I dint tell her "Sheeesh u believe in God", I jus asked her politely why u believe in what u believe. It was she who scoffed at me and walked out.
Nope I dint expect any brownie points when I guessed that u were a lady. I jus wanted to know thats all.
Hmm !! U know what - i can easily relate to this conversation !! Coz i have been involved in quite a few of these myself !! Well i will tell u what she means - Disclaimer Disclaimer - just a guess !!
She means that deep down the heart u are a theist but u wud use her very own argument of theism against her !! Something like u will scoff at her example and make her feel bad... Doesn't make lot of sense does it ??
ANeeways it's a common misconception that "atheism" is the fashion of the age !! Something like those who speak against GOD are rebels !! Well my dad certainly thinks so !!
@Catch 22 - "To me, personally, the burden of proof lies with the theists. Prove it and I will believe." - I have actually found this the other way round !! Often in conversations, i am asked - What do u know about Hinduism !! There are various sects of hinduism dwaita, advaita etc etc .. And they end in the same proverb - Thatvam asi !! I think i have to do more talking against GOD than those who support it !!
@Soliloquist - "the idea of God means different things to different people" - good one !!
"Frankly, early 20s isnt the age to form an opinion about things that you just started to wonder about " - Sorry Ma'm .. U are terribly mistaken !! I am personally pondering abt this problem for a long time now .. It's not as though (I) or We are atheists just be hearin someone give a beautiful speech against god !! People are much more rational these days .. The other day i had a brilliant argument with a school student(+2) guy about god !! People are maturing quite early these days !!
Hi Catch22 !
Cool post!
as far as comments...
I can decide should I laugh or feel surprised over some comments form certain ppl ;-)
Currently I am a bit busy debugging, once I have cleared up the code I have at hand... I will be back to help u clear some bugs in certain comments.
Till then.
X
@the soliloquist:
so we are at it again are we? Why do you use the SAME arguments everytime confronted with a 'pretentious' atheist??? You made similar accusations against me and if my memory serves me right I replied more or less on the same lines (though as you claimed with a lot more hubris :p). I also linked to a brilliant Falstaff's post.
But that hasnt really helped has it?
Tell me why shouldnt I think you are doing this just for the sake of doing it and not being a rabble rouser?
Neither do you delineate as to "why" you believe "what" you believe and you have this tirade against the efficacy of 'Logic' which is err..'logically' inconsistent.
Musafir : " PS: Being an atheist or an agnostic does not imply arrogance or depravity as is commonly misunderstood. "
Well said. Soliloquist isnt that what you accused me of earlier too when we had almost similar conversation?
If you think 'atheism' is a fashion statement let me tell you it doesnt rate very high on the look-at-me-lady scale.
How can you take refuge in the cliche "The idea of God emans different things to different people"?? How is that even an argument?? Beats me.
The way I see it there are two ways. Either you can put the cards on the table and we could discuss it rationally (ah! that is the catch isnt it? Belief in god (faith)demands one overcomes logic ) or you could go around telling all atheists you encounter in the online world how pseudo they are and how atheism is just a la mode.
I am not claiming there is no grey area but using that as a justification for ambivalency will get us nowhere...only misunderstandings and character assassinaitons :p
@ the soliloquist: One simple question:
What are you trying to say?
You know what? There is a fine sub-text running through both the comments you have made here (and also the one you made on my blog for the post about the fisherman), a condescending sub-text which says:
"Oh, looky, looky, these kids are talking about purpose and God. Isn't that sad? Poor children, what would they know? Forgive them lord for they do not know what they're doing...God it seems! And purpose! Hah! What would you know? You code-writing-money-minded-logic-worshipping morons! Look at wise old me, I'm waiting to grow old before I analyse these things and come to a conclusion." (disclaimer: no offence meant and not to be taken personally at all)
Frankly, all I see here is somebody indulging in character assassination and putting up a desperate stand sans any concrete arguments trying to hold on to a lost cause. And like Girish says, unless you enunciate whatever it is that you're saying or trying to say, this discussion is pointless.
Ranga padam paathuruppanga. Adhua Rajini dialogue pola pesa try panirukkanga and malayala pen kutti.
May be just go over http://badhrinath.blogspot.com/2006/05/god-is-square-of-i2.html
Man that female...is one helluva lady.
Totally cool...
what she meant maybe was She had enough reason to convince u bout GOD but also convince u to such an extent that might want the god for urself and u end up making others non believers.
just an opinion ;)
@ catch:
All these “needs for God” that an atheist dismisses with finality have unanswered questions that could go in loops inherent in them.(Girish would jump up at this!) Please don’t ask me to elucidate on these, cos I m sure u d find them if u did a little more pondering sans bias. By the way, aren’t we stating a “dogma” for the atheists here, with these “for an atheist / as an atheist” clauses ??
Just one little question out of curiosity and nothing else.. Is ur liberal stance on religion a consequence of Atheism alone? Has beliving in God hampered ur outlook on this issue? Not makin a generalization, but just want to know what is it that makes ppl incline towards atheism? A new found rush of liberal thoughts/ inner peace? Or a recognition of one’s potential and self-confidence? Or plain defiance? Cos people aren’t born atheists, they become one.
Nowhere in the conversation did I find anything explicit on what God meant to her.Sorry for repeating it again., but the idea of God is a personal experience. And if you really want to know what God means to her , I guess it has to be through a longer conversation with a more focused discussion on the topic, and not by reading in between the lines!
The mention of sophistry was in explanation to my previous comment and not with reference to the contents of the post per se.
The disbelief is natural cos theism has a wider following than atheism. And when you differ from the crowd, u r bound to make heads turn ,for good or bad.
My whole point here is, if r nt sure about something, that doesn’t mean u rule it out all together … why should people find some way or the other to close the case?? Why doesn’t anyone say “ I m a part atheist, a part theist?”, or a “liberal atheist/theist”? Ambivalence needs to recognized where it has to be, why should we always look for an absolute verdict??
@ karthik:
precisely how long is long enough to reach a conclusion?
And what do u define maturity as? The ability of create an impression of thinking out aloud? And the same people who say atheism is rational , appreciate opposing existentialist thoughts as well.. I feel its too much of knowledge crammed in too less time, with the access to “reading material” ( and not real knowledge) ever increasing, that leaves much of it partially assimilated.
I m not saying an inquisitive mind is rebellious… A pure curiosity in the subject wouldn’t and shouldn’t lead us to pre-mature conclusions.. this isn’t a battle field with “burden of coming up with proof” resting on either sides.. Its not for the joy of argument that you discuss this.. Truthfully, I m not relishing this argument much…
@ Girish:
If the subject remains the same, my arguments remain the same too. Maybe I nourish the hope that someone else would be more open and wouldn’t mind stopping to think before taking the next step.. If u felt that u have “rationally” scored over me, I let u have the satisfaction of doing so. That’s why I sincerely appreciate the lady’s wisdom in ending the conversation where she did. And besides, that post of Falstaff isn’t what I would call one of his “brilliant” ones. I m not saying that I can prove it by logic or otherwise that God exists. Or for that matter doesn’t exist. The same proof that believers run for, is chased by the non-believers as well, (if they really want to prove something..) .. I wouldn’t want you to tell me how much of thinking you did before you became an “atheist”.. I would want you to ask that to yourself, without any strings attached, (not even the unacknowledged reluctance to trace ur path back), if u had devoted enough time and unbiased thought to this.. If your honest answer satisfies you, then I have no more comments on the topic. I wouldn’t be surprised if you brand my request as evangelistic.
“"?? How is that even an argument??” . I wasn’t putting forth an argument in the first place. It isn’t a battle of wits. Spirituality isn’t intellectual marijuana.
When you can claim to be a confluence of contradictions, you should be able to appreciate the same in the world around you. You would be a rational thinker with existentialist leanings, and would oscillate between the two, but would expect to sit down with you and have a discussion on…., lets see, your terms?? I don’t think I m game for it. As for character assassinations, I don’t see how that’s gonna happen, unless people resort to slander, which as far as I go, isn’t happening here. A little digression, I have posted a few anonymous and not so anonymous critical comments in Falstaff’s blogs, which were duly responded to, and in a constructive manner, which makes me appreciate him more as a writer. Perhaps Falstaff was a wee bit too magnanimous.
@ musafir:
This is what I m trying to say: “Don’t go by books/ or what others say or think. Cos in all the arguments I see here and have seen before, I see a profound influence of the exterior rather than an expression of the self”. If that assassinates your character, it is purely accidental and not intentional.
As for the comment in your post: It isn’t related to this one, atleast I didn’t intend it to. Girish’s fond recollection of my earlier “extremely stimulating” discussion with him on the same topic should convince you better.
code-writing-money-minded-logic-worshipping morons: I belong to the same class, if at all it exists. Nor am I Red, politically.
Disclaimer acknowledgement: None taken.
@ anon/ X: I m not looking forward to any fixing of bugs in my “arguments”, if its going to be on the same lines as the above. If there are any bugs, I would let them remain, cos they don’t seem to bug me. And if your “logic” or anything else is “superior” to mine, I bow my head in humiliation in advance.
@ catch : Sorry for littering your comment space. You always have the option to delete my ramblings..
@ all of you: thanks for the tirade. Wouldn’t be too keen on a reply from you folks.
But then, I kinda feel flattered to have so much of “attention” paid to my words !
ok wat was this!! lol.. cant help but laugh..
shows u how we believe and follow things without trying to udnerstand y!
@soliloquist: Alrighty let me take up the cudgels...
All these “needs for God” that an atheist dismisses with finality have unanswered questions
that could go in loops inherent in them.(Girish would jump up at this!) Please don’t ask me to elucidate on these, cos I m sure u d find them if u did a little more pondering sans bias. By the way, aren’t we stating a “dogma” for the atheists here, with these “for an atheist / as an atheist” clauses ??
Jump at it indeed I will...it is obvious bias or otherwise we are unable to hone on to it....so on behalf of the clueless atheists here I should indeed request you to elucidate...
The "Need for God" is a very important question...and remember also it is extremely easy to
take refuge in the cliche "God means different things to different people" (That would be ina way a polytheistic stand..something which the xians and the moselm people would not look too kindly at..)
Just one little question out of curiosity and nothing else.. Is ur liberal stance on religion a consequence of Atheism alone? Has beliving in God hampered ur outlook on this issue?
Not makin a generalization, but just want to know what is it that makes ppl incline towards atheism? A new found rush of liberal thoughts/ inner peace? Or a recognition of one’s potential
and self-confidence? Or plain defiance? Cos people aren’t born atheists, they become one.
Though it was not addressed to me I take liberty in answering for him....the question of atheism and liberal attitude is not the chicken/egg question...both influence each other and neither is a consequence of each other.
So what is it that inclines people towards theism anyway? other than nurture?
Btw people arent born theists either..they are influenced to become one....
Nowhere in the conversation did I find anything explicit on what God meant to her.Sorry for repeating it again., but the idea of God is a personal experience. And if you really want to know what God means to her , I guess it has to be through a longer conversation with a more focused discussion on the topic, and not by reading in between the lines!
ah! that 'personal experience' is a classic cop-out line....as classic as "It is God's will I am an atheist!" :P
The disbelief is natural cos theism has a wider following than atheism. And when you differ from the crowd, u r bound to make heads turn ,for good or bad.
The fact that something has a 'wider following' is hardly a justification for it's veracity.
Shouldnt we sepnd some time cogitating "why" it has a wider following? The Vatican comes to my
mind immediately....if you want em to I can expatiate more on this...
My whole point here is, if r nt sure about something, that doesn’t mean u rule it out all together … why should people find some way or the other to close the case?? Why doesn’t anyone say “ I m a part atheist, a part theist?”, or a “liberal atheist/theist”? Ambivalence needs to recognized where it has to be, why should we always look for an absolute verdict??
Because ambivalece means nothing here. Either there is a Personal God or there isnt. You might be aware of something called Deism who claimed "God" did indeed create the world but then went on his way...in other words "He" has no more influence on the running of the world/human affairs than Donnie Brasco. It is ofcourse a very convenient way of thwarting the "First Cause Argument" but then so is taking refuge in "faith".
And what do u define maturity as? The ability of create an impression of thinking out aloud?
And the same people who say atheism is rational , appreciate opposing existentialist thoughts as well.. I feel its too much of knowledge crammed in too less time, with the access to “reading material” ( and not real knowledge) ever increasing, that leaves much of it partially assimilated.
what's that about opposing existnetilaist thoughts and embracing atheism?:|
Pray what is 'real knowledge"? (Divine revelation perhaps?) That's a classic True Scottsman fallacy...
@ Girish:
If the subject remains the same, my arguments remain the same too. Maybe I nourish the hope that someone else would be more open and wouldn’t mind stopping to think before taking the next step.. If u felt that u have “rationally” scored over me, I let u have the satisfaction of doing so.
Well that shows we are getting nowhere. Dont you think your words "more open" "stopping to think" is ad hominem?
That’s why I sincerely appreciate the lady’s wisdom in ending the conversation where she
did.
wisdom?? forsooth! she didnt know what to say...other than claim "faith".
... I m not saying that I can prove it by logic or otherwise that God exists. Or for that
matter doesn’t exist. The same proof that believers run for, is chased by the non-believers as
well, (if they really want to prove something..) .. I wouldn’t want you to tell me how much of
thinking you did before you became an “atheist”.. I would want you to ask that to yourself, without any strings attached, (not even the unacknowledged reluctance to trace ur path back), if u had devoted enough time and unbiased thought to this.. If your honest answer satisfies you, then I have no more comments on the topic. I wouldn’t be surprised if you brand my request as evangelistic.
Nah...hardly evangelistic. But you are assuming too much.."strings attached","bias","reluctance to trace back" ..
EH?? what makes you think i havent done that? alright let me throw the question back to you....why do you think I/we are atheists???
“"?? How is that even an argument??” . I wasn’t putting forth an argument in the first place.
It isn’t a battle of wits. Spirituality isn’t intellectual marijuana.
Ah come on...alrighty define spirituality. "intellectual marijuana"? Well yeah..thinking does give me a high..you must try it sometimes.
When you can claim to be a confluence of contradictions, you should be able to appreciate the same in the world around you.
When did I claim that? :| how does the seocnd follow the first anyway? Is it like assuming I am a hemaphrodite I should recognize the bisexuality in others too? eh?
You would be a rational thinker with existentialist leanings, and would oscillate between the two,
Osciallate between the two? If my understanding of the sentence is right you are claiming Existentialism is not rational? :) Mutatis Mutandis..
but would expect to sit down with you and have a discussion on…., lets see, your terms?? I
don’t think I m game for it.
My terms yes...which simply is talk on rational terms. Give me tangible facts. dont use the classic cop out lines "faith',"it's a personal experience","you are too young","you arent spiritual enough" etc etc. Is that too mcuh to ask? :|
As for character assassinations, I don’t see how that’s gonna happen, unless people resort to slander, which as far as I go, isn’t happening here.
Says who? Kindly go through your posts and your undisguised allegations against so called atheists..:)
A little digression, I have posted a few anonymous and not so anonymous critical comments in
Falstaff’s blogs, which were duly responded to, and in a constructive manner, which makes me appreciate him more as a writer. Perhaps Falstaff was a wee bit too magnanimous.
So? what's the point of it? Digression yes..but what are you trying to saY?
And have you realised? it is always easier to be polite to a stranger...
@ musafir:
This is what I m trying to say: “Don’t go by books/ or what others say or think. Cos in all the arguments I see here and have seen before, I see a profound influence of the exterior rather than an expression of th[e self”.
Pray kindly elucidate what does 'expression of the self' mean? something about my inner soul perhaps?
Girish’s fond recollection of my earlier “extremely stimulating” discussion with him on the same topic should convince you better.
Oh yes. The non sequiturs. one gets used to it ofcourse.
@ anon/ X: I m not looking forward to any fixing of bugs in my “arguments”, if its going to be on the same lines as the above. If there are any bugs, I would let them remain, cos they don’t seem to bug me. And if your “logic” or anything else is “superior” to mine, I bow my head in humiliation in advance.
That is some willingness to put the cards on the table and discuss on "rational terms" indeed...bravo!
@ all of you: thanks for the tirade. Wouldn’t be too keen on a reply from you folks.
But then, I kinda feel flattered to have so much of “attention” paid to my words !
You are welcome...
@The soliloquist,
Change is inevitable; and logic is just logic… there cant be superior or inferior…
Of course there is one possibility ‘illogical’.
We discuss to improve not to prove… so chill dear.
X
@Girish: “Alrighty let me take up the cudgel...”
That’s nice, would like a change of weaponry, however Neanderthal it may be…
"God means different things to different people".
I m not mixing religion in this, for one thing. So my offending xtians or muslims is out of context.
its not that i wouldnt want to discuss "what i see as God" with u here, but its just that, u may call it fear, that u might make yet another mockery of what i hold valuble, to prove "your point".
If i might safely give u an inkling, i d say i see God in the way humans are structured... glimpses of perfection in all that chaos..
The way the secrets of the world(s) unravel themselves at the precise point of time, while all along they have been right under our noses..
So many such things.. U might call it awe, and awe is probably what it is. Probably u r right, the point where one's ability for rational reasoning ends, God springs up. I am not using God to expalin what i dont understand, nor am i using God to close the X-
files.. I revere the unknown, before i make it known to me. That is only a part of my dimension of God. I neednt give a name to it, but when face to face with the immense potential of knowledge, or creation, the kind of humility that creeps in makes me wonder.. In sharp contrast, the immense ability of man, the way civilization has progressed, is equally awe –inspiring.. Even the hitchhiker’s had a superior race runnin the earth as an experiment… Science fiction is so full of Parallel worlds.. or worlds in higher planes… and most scientists were confirmed theists.
As for the popularity of theism in terms of numbers, atheists too were at loss to concretely prove it wrong.. all along.. so the numbers never diminished. Its alright to take up atheism on an experimental basis, a form of self- analysis, but endorsing it is a different issue. Needs more effort than we think it does.
Rituals and religion don’t necessarily spell God or whatever it is. As for liberal thoughts and atheism, why are we overlooking the fact that both can be mutually exclusive of each other ?? And it is again upto the individual how he chooses both to be? Perhaps in your case, they had a mutual influence.
As for nurture being the sole reason for atheism. I for one, had almost one half of my family as hard core atheists, and some of them have been my personal role models. I have been exposed to both sides, and have done a modest amount of thinking on this issue, during the couple of decades of my existence. And I wasn’t looking out for a high, a rapid shoot up of intellectual senses, and a state of “intellectual bliss”. (Now, this was slander intended).
You always cite the Vatican, the Dei and all other western theist instituitions. Why is anything oriental always ignored? Why not turn east for inspiration.. Western thought had lots of political overtones, and rules and regulations were a prominent feature.?Why quote anyone or anything for that matter?? We are not discussing history are we? And what is the part of your argument that is solely yours and is the brain child of ur analysis alone and has no influence from books/philosophers/and others? I would be extremely happy to discuss that anywhere anytime. Maybe that’s why you find the “personal experience” thing so ridiculous…. I would sleep over any of “those spiritual books” of osho and the like, and for that matter like myths only for the fictional value.. And I don’t see why you want to mention Deism here.. And what my awareness of it has got to do with anything that we are discussing.
Real knowledge isn’t reading from books and merely being aware of the facts. Knowledge without application isn’t knowledge at all. Read, and think about it. Think deep. You calling it “divine revelation” shows how “open” you are before actually getting what I am trying to say.
Well, as far as my understanding goes, existentialism and rationalism are opposing schools of thought. And atheists claim to be devoted rationalists. Correct me if I am wrong.
Nowhere in the conversation did the girl use evangelistic rhetoric. Most of her talk was interrogative and the last line summed up her reaction. How do u know that she didn’t know what to say?? Unless u had your own tete-e-tete with her.. Your response is appallingly childish.. If you refuse to fight with me, u r a coward, shame on u !
Again using the license to slander graciously bestowed upon me , “Give me tangible facts to prove that you have brains” and I shall give you tangible facts to prove that God exists.
I may not be a stranger to you, but for the others, I am or was a stranger till you stepped in.
When according to dogma no 1 of atheists their exists an “inner strength” then why not an “inner soul” ?? or is there another cache for inner strength somewhere in the anatomy of man?
And as for the looping questions. “ If a higher realm doesn’t exist for an atheist”, then what is his explanation for the things for which “existing human intelligence” cant provide an answer?? .. with each new discovery come a hoarde of new questions..
And I guess we could take this elsewhere, insteading of messing up the comments space here..
@ anon/X:
Thanks for being “genuinely moderate”. Really appreciate that.
And what do u imply by “logic is logic” ?
To All the Atheists, Agnostics and Confused Freaks over here -
If Seeing is believing, what more proof do u need ? I am here to support the gal - The soliloquist
"Belief moves Mountains" - so start believing in me. Bid adieu to all thy bad habits and pray to me with a pure mind. Someday you may achieve Manna(in 100 days or else full money back )
oops here comes the God now ...
well Mr/Miss/Mrs God...
Just move the mountain ;-) (as my science teacher misinformed me abt the theory that explains mountain movements)
But I do appreciate the commercial value... associated...
if u promise me a 10% commission I can market ur deal...
X
Thanks God! what would i have been without your support!!
I knew you would appear before me at the right time.. I was just about to cry and run back to momma...
*(Kneels and prays)* (goes into a frenzy)
(God smiles and disappears) (poof)!
That’s nice, would like a change of weaponry, however Neanderthal it may be...
Sure...have to chose my weapon depending on the capability of my opponent...I am magnanimous that way...
I m not mixing religion in this, for one thing. So my offending xtians or muslims is out of context.
Well sooner or later you will have to get down to this...there are different versions of theism which are mutually contradicting. Why even hinduism is polytheistic. So how does you explain the anamoly without brining in the social and culturla milieau?
its not that i wouldnt want to discuss "what i see as God" with u here, but its just that, u may call it fear, that u might make yet another mockery of what i hold valuble, to prove "your point".
So what? if it is "fear" that makes you believe in God well then you give me no choice but to call a spade a spade. (Talk about putting the cards on the table..) "my point" being what? See thta is the difference...if what you think is vlauable doesnt hold up to the rationalist's knife it would indeed be cut to pieces...just as I expect mine to be notwithstanding whether I hold it "valuable" or not...
If i might safely give u an inkling, i d say i see God in the way humans are structured... glimpses of perfection in all that chaos..
Ha ha...humans? perfection??? what about vestigial organs?? Do you think we humans are epitome of "perfection" ??(Even if I had believed God created us I would have the humility to assume we were an experiment went horribly wrong:P ) if that is not hubris then tell me what is? What is the chaos you are talkling about?
The way the secrets of the world(s) unravel themselves at the precise point of time, while all along they have been right under our noses..
How do you know it is the "precise point of time"? That statement implicits assume you are privy to the "time table" of points. Mind sharing it with us? :|
Now let me take up the technological advances itself...it is no brainer that medicines and technology has improved leaps and bounds off late and the average age of a person living has increased way beyong what it was..mm..say 2000 yrs back? So is it your point that "those" humans deserved to stay just 30 yrs or so and modern man say 70 yrs? So is it your that the "number of years" a man lives doesnt matter but the "deeds" matter? Then tell me how many people are really serious,trenchant believers in God and not dedicate themselves hook,line and sinker for the almighty? Assuming ofcourse one hones down to "who" the almighty considering there is so much of variety....
So many such things.. U might call it awe, and awe is probably what it is. Probably u r right, the point where one's ability for rational reasoning ends, God springs up. I am not using God to expalin what i dont understand, nor am i using God to close the X-
files.. I revere the unknown, before i make it known to me. That is only a part of my dimension of God. I neednt give a name to it, but when face to face with the immense potential of knowledge, or creation, the kind of humility that creeps in makes me wonder..
Err..so? what makes you think I am not in "awe"? But where does the "personalized God" come in here? :|
Science fiction is so full of Parallel worlds.. or worlds in higher planes… and most scientists were confirmed theists...
Please do your research better...the line "most scientists" is a fuzy one..not that the fatc they were theists makes the case any stronger...just because a person is expert in one field doesnt amke him an authority on others...unless ofcourse he backs it up by verifiable,justifiable logical reasoning.
As for the popularity of theism in terms of numbers, atheists too were at loss to concretely prove it wrong.. all along.. so the numbers never diminished
Wonder where you derive all such conclusions from...ever heard of "memes"?
And ever heard of Steve Pinker?
Its alright to take up atheism on an experimental basis, a form of self- analysis, but endorsing it is a different issue.
Err...why? how happens if one "endoreses" it? How is an atheist different from a theist with respect to his mundane chores??
As for liberal thoughts and atheism, why are we overlooking the fact that both can be mutually exclusive of each other ??
How? dont make arbitrary statements if you cannot back it up...
As for nurture being the sole reason for atheism.
EH? where did I say that?
And I wasn’t looking out for a high, a rapid shoot up of intellectual senses, and a state of “intellectual bliss”.
Err...that was the best you could do???is that your idea of 'slander'?:)
You always cite the Vatican, the Dei and all other western theist instituitions. Why is anything oriental always ignored? Why not turn east for inspiration..
Because they shaped the course of history of religion....ok
I turn East for inspiration..what am I supposed to find here?
And what is the part of your argument that is solely yours and is the brain child of ur analysis alone and has no influence from books/philosophers/and others?
Ah you seem to ignore one thing...I am not nerely "imbibing" whatever the philosophers/boosk say and getting 'influenced" by it and viola! here I am a true book worm atheist...I cant speak for others but mine path to atheism was more of a self realization via 'neutral perspective'. The books and th ephilosophers only gave me moral sanction and made me relaize I was not the only one to have such 'blasphemous' thoughts after all :) And then one thing leads to another and you end up reading more and thinking a lot more.
And I don’t see why you want to mention Deism here.. And what my awareness of it has got to do with anything that we are discussing.
I mentioned Deism because of the 'First Cause Arguemnt'
Real knowledge isn’t reading from books and merely being aware of the facts. Knowledge without application isn’t knowledge at all. Read, and think about it. Think deep.
And you "think" I dont do that? That i merely regurgigate the 'facts' that I read? :) you know in any discussion/arguemnt the one thing which by default I acknowledge is 'intellectual honesty'. Something which you dont seem to do...
Well, as far as my understanding goes, existentialism and rationalism are opposing schools of thought. And atheists claim to be devoted rationalists. Correct me if I am wrong.
Wrong by a long way!!!! Existentialism and rationalism are definitely not opposing schools of thoughts!! do read up a more on those...else you wouldnt be making this faux pas...
Well all atheists are rationalists but not necessarily vice versa. But then again thta is open to interpretation depending on one's defintion of 'atheism' and 'rationalism'.
How do u know that she didn’t know what to say?? Unless u had your own tete-e-tete with her..
Again jumping to conclusions...I have..she is my colleague...
When according to dogma no 1 of atheists their exists an “inner strength”..
Wow! we have a dogma??? damn!! they never told me...."inner strength"?? ha ha where did that come from??
And as for the looping questions. “ If a higher realm doesn’t exist for an atheist”, then what is his explanation for the things for which “existing human intelligence” cant provide an answer??
Things like what? You sem to be under the impression that atheists think that they know "all the answers". Hardly that. They just know "a personalized God" isnt one. That's it.
And I guess we could take this elsewhere, insteading of messing up the comments space here..
Well and do what? we will end up arguing the same thing again and again...how about perusing this for a change?
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
phew a long list of comments and heated discussion...
## i commend u on ur observation that women beleive in God more than why...i wont comprehand much on it as simply give credit to the difference in nature.
## I think very very strong ppl can bt beleive in Atheism. I alwasy want hope in my mind. There are so many things bad AS WELL AS good...!! Imagine a atheist, his mother s on deathbed and all doc can say is..we have done our best..God may help, rest r prayers of well-wishers...wait is for 72 hrs..i think an atheist needs sumthing more than just the doc words 'that we hv tried our best'...to sit and wait for his mother to take 1 more breath...!! 1 need to be really strong nt to hv any hopes, when u face a situation like ths..U NEED HOPE...
## i agree v humans r selfish souls, if sumthing bad happens to them we just conclude that there s no God !! Where was He when this happened...
## There have been so many times when there was this moment when i did need sum help and it came my way....as if God himself touched my life..!! It was my parents wishes with me...it was destiny..or God
## Why do we work so hard to earn our livings...becoz we 'hope' that we wil b alive for coming 10-20-30 yrs...this hope is God
## Religion n faith in God s very personal issue n trust me u cannot teach sum1 to trust or hv faith in sumthing!!
It was rude on tht girl's part to say things like this to u...she did sound as if just becoz u r a non-believer in God u r impossible or bad...!! and by her last statemnt i think she meant that if she tries n convince with u...u will gv counter srguments n in a way try n convince her that there s nothing called God...
as other people have said cant think of anything y she said that...but laugh..:)
@Girish:
jus 2 things to say:
there are are a couple of places, where u seem to have lost the flow of conversation. I merely used ur own words in my sentences, and u ended up denying them. For instance:
Girish:"So what is it that inclines people towards theism anyway? other than nurture?"
Girish: "As for nurture being the sole reason for atheism."
EH? where did I say that?
Could be a case of oversight, but then again, none of us are flawless. Humans show "glimpses of perfection", though they r not entirely perfect.
"Well and do what? we will end up arguing the same thing again and again..."
Finally we seem to agree on something..
Well I have only one thing to say...
Girish:So what is it that inclines people towards theism anyway? other than nurture?
Girish: "As for nurture being the sole reason for atheism.
How is both the same??? I said nurture is the primary reason for "theism" not "atheism"....but you quoted me otherwise and i pointed out...
you amaze me with your power of ratiocination...!!!
Catch 22!! I could not help laughing out loud.
It meant she wanted to cut the conversation somehow as she saw no future scope to this investment:)
First of all, I know none of the contributors above, except that catch22 is a friend of vasu. Just not able to stop from chipping in with my views.. :)
No.. I am not getting into any of those discussions on believers & non-believers. I only believe in live & let live.
Just trying to figure out what the gal meant when she said, "If I tell ya why I believe in God, then u will believe in God and make other people non believers).
I guess she meant to say - I don't want a third class fellow like u to believe in God. You see even cats & dogs don't believe in god. So believers might get hurt if a moron like u starts advocating god.
-Dammy(Have taken the liberty to offensively typecast u. The way I know u from vasu & ur posts, am sure ur shameless enough not to mind this. Yes, please feel free to blast the hell out of me in return)
@ Rupali - No future scope in the investment !! that was a good one. :) . the point is she dint know how to respond ,could be multiple reasons one could be she genuinely doesnt know how to justify her belief in God, secondly she might be afraid that I might convince her otherwise adn third could be as Dammy said.
@Dammy - Ur reactions suggest u are a great believer of good, are u ? U see I don wanna assume and make an a$$ out of u and me hence I ask. As coming to type casting me well what can I say u r relying on third hand information abt me to type cast me ? I guess vasu hardly knows so really cant blame u.
No, I don't believe in God. Will sure rot in hell.... :)
And obviously I did not mean any of what I said in the previous comment except that u r shameless enough not to mind such sruff from a stranger... ;)
I still maintain that this is a gud enuf assumption.
@ Dammy - Lol abt rotting in hell will giv ya company there :)
And abt the assumption which u made let me say u both right and wrong. Right about the part where u say I wouldn mind this stuff and wrong about when u mention the reason as shamelessness, then what is it that makes me not mind such stuff ? Guess...
Nonono, I am not picking any complimentary word for u. I am not praising someone directly on their face/blog. :-)
I don't mind hell as long as I have good company.
@ Dammy - Did I say it had to be a complimentary one ? Nah neednt be.
Yeah true if u r in good company Hell cant be all that bad. Again Hell and Heaven are kuman defined terms may be in reality (if they exist) hell may be more beautiful than heaven who knows there is no evidence one way or the other.
@ Srinath - I am interested to know why people believe in God and if they gimme rational reasons even i would like to believe. Thats why I asked her "Why do you beleive in God and make a believer out of me?" I never said she was making a believer out of me. I jus asked her to convince me that there exists God. Is he dint wanna justify her beliefs she neednt but that was not the way to end a conversation. She could have jus said I refuse to answer and I would shut up.
women speak a different language.
you'd have to be one of them to understand the subtle nuances that ar the female mind :-)
@ Hamlet - Thats an easy way out isnt it. Just say u wouldn understand and thats it u don have to explain anything. I have no problem with people saying i refuse to explain but i definitely have a problem when people tell me that i wont understand.
women do speak alien!
me: so u gonna tell him u like him?
her: no way! y shud i approach first?
me: hmm... ego eh!
her: no man! i dont have no ego issues! but i want HIM to come to me first!
me disconnects the phone and blames it on the bad network!
__________________________________
me: wanna eat egg bhurji
her: yea yumm.. lets go to some roadside joint where we get it the best!
me: yea.. me loves tht too.. the cheaper the better too eh!
her: huh! its not about money!
me: J-O-K-E
her: cheapo.. by the way.. you got cash right? i really have to save this week!
me: hmm!
(and we ate at a roadside joint)
__________________________________
her: I just spent Rs.750 on a head massage. For 3 hrs they just oiled my hair and gave it a nice massage
I was speechless!
___________________________________
her: i am studying GMAT so i can go to US.
me: huh! US? wat u plannin 2 take up?
her: that i dunno. u know na he's there in the US. so let me reach US first, there I will decide. btw, u heard "B" is going to pune?
me: yeah.. cz her bf plans to take up course in acting there
her: wth! does she ever think about her career!
Me reached for my gun!
yeah man.. these converstaions are 4 real! :S
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